Dudley Outpouring on the BBC

The Revival Fires Church got slammed on the BBC this week for claiming healing.

This was BBC 1, prime time, in the west midlands. It is the first ten minutes.

I found it very hard viewing, for all manner of reasons.

On the one hand I believe in healing, that God heals, that some people are healed.

I also know Churches are under the spotlight regarding healing claims.

I think Trevor Baker is a genuine guy. I don't believe he is deceitful. He used to minister near here in Telford and was a real blessing to many people.

On the other hand, some of the things other bloggers commented on regarding the whole approach, such as the way the offering is administered, are ruthlessly exposed and highlighted by the programme.

I just wish there were some medical records available for the BBC. Without them, any healing claims are open to questioning, and add in the cynicism of the age and a bit of cash washing around and it is a perfect storm for a programme like that.

The Dudley Outpouring

Quoting from the Revival Fires website here it says:

"Having had 28 weeks of extended meetings of the Dudley Outpouring, which has had major impact on the church in UK and Europe, it has been wonderful to see what God has done, but we need to take a view on what’s next."

That statement really stuck out for me.

Three questions for those who read this blog.

1) Has it had an impact on you or your Church?

2) Was that impact good, bad or indifferent?

3) Is there an increased faith and expectancy for healing linked to what happened in Dudley?

I am looking for comments to provide an open, positive and honest sharing of testimony and critique of what has happened this year.

Following the herd...

Does this remind you of any situations within the wider Church recently?



Thanks to this website for a moment of amusement.

What can we learn from Lakeland?

I wanted to draw a line under my blogging on the subject of Todd Bentley and Lakeland but Phil Whittall's excellent post Todd Bentley, Revival & Discernment really got me thinking.

His ten point analysis gives much food for thought. And I am trying to make it personal to me - not what can we learn in a "know it all" way, but what can I learn in an "as I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling" kind of a way.

1. We should let history give a name to what is God is doing. Really early on, in fact way too early on, it was called a 'revival' and Dudley was called an 'outpouring' and named by those involved. To my mind that is a big presumption and to be honest God's work rarely needs man's PR to make it a success.

Good point - instead of predicting the "next big thing" and chasing after where it is supposedly at, let's chase after God and His purposes and His call on our lives and see how history judges us.

2. This was the first 'revival' in a media age. There is no question in my mind, that this event was the first of its kind which spread virally and was 'sponsored' by a TV station (God TV) and that this was not always good. While, this TV channel is run by Christians it is still a TV channel. Sadly for us, being on TV is a still seen as a sign of legitimacy which shows that we still have a fairly naive and immature approach to media. Being able to watch in on the internet or on TV does not make it any more or less genuine.

I think I was already pretty cautious about the Christian media at large, and will be more so now. No matter how good the intentions, we are always getting an agenda. The same goes for conferences, books, speakers etc etc. Keeping a broader vision and staying connected widely across the body of Christ help us to have a context. "Power evangelism" is going on at St Andrews Chorleywood in the ministry of Mark Stibbe and others. UK Anglicans, on the front foot, seeking God for healing and conversion and seeing it. That is exciting - God is at work in such a variety of ways - but by their nature media channels push us into focus on the smaller amount of locations and ministries, creating an imbalance.

3. TV inflates and exaggerates. Saying you have a potential audience of 400 million people is very, very different from the number of people that are actually watching. Right now I have a potential readership of billions on this blog, in reality the number is one or two less than that.

The numbers game is a false economy. TV coverage focuses on the end of the camera, God's Kingdom perspective focuses to the ends of the earth. Let's consider the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, the Church across the world. Not the millions looking to the one, but the one, me, looking to the millions, the millions of my brothers and sisters around the world on mission, under persecution, in poverty. The only one we should focus on is Jesus.

4. What is the deal with the nightly meetings? This seems to have become a modern mark of revival. Where did that come from? I've no idea why intensity has become more important than longevity but it has. It certainly accommodates demand, but it seems to me that saturation often does more harm than good and in the case of Lakeland we became saturated faster than ever before. Why do we exhaust so quickly what we want so badly?

Church programmes quickly overtake relationships. Do our structures consume or release, take or empower, bless or burden? Are our churches so resource hungry that our mission falters? Isn't mission supposed to be about getting out there and meeting people were they are not sitting here and expecting them to come to us? This challenges me more and more as I can get sucked into church activity daily and nightly - but always want space for my friends.

5. We made it about a man. Again. Todd Bentley may very well have a supernatural gift from God to heal people, this is not a good reason to let him preach dozens of nights in a row. It is not a good reason to let him exhort people to give. It's not a good reason for much except getting him to pray for the sick (although preferably without punching, kicking, kneeing, slamming or whatever). Why can't we let the gifted preacher preach, the prophet prophesy and the healer heal? So once again our shallow need for celebrity, and plenty of other causes, gave one person far too much prominence, where it was dangerous for him and dangerous for the campaign he was involved in.

More and more I see this play out. People really do want to make it about a person. I think this is where Ephesians 4 ministries are so vital - people need to play to their strengths. It is never about one person, one ministry - some of the variety is the beauty of being in a body. Let the musicians play, let the evangelists preach, let the teachers teach, let the pastors look after people and let the administrators try to fill in the gaps! Being right in one area doesn't make someone right in everything. I think Phil's blog, and his heart cry, needs & deserves much wider airing than it currently has. We need different prophetic voices in the Church raising their voices and being heard - but not a "one size fits all" approach. Phil's got a message on living simply, he has a challenge to materialism. But that doesn't mean he is the right person to speak on "power evangelism" - get Mark Stibbe to do that! Let's release each other and honour the good, not expect everyone to do everything.

That is why I enjoy the Brighton conference - as I have friends in India and Africa who I can hear from and catch up with. The range of speakers is a blessing - someone working in Russia, someone working in South Africa, Someone from Seattle - not just my little bubble.

Eldership is a team ministry. Leadership is a team ministry. People say to me "Are you part of Martin Charlesworth's Church"? What a false question. Nope - I am part of Jesus' church. Martin leads the eldership team of our local expression of it.

6. Charismatics want revival the easy way. Still. We desperately want people to be saved without us preaching to them, healed without us praying for them, discipled without us befriending them, enriched without us sharing with them and the nations reached without us going to them. So when one man came, we went to him instead of to HIM.

Do I pray for things I am actually not willing to be part of? Do I look to people instead of God? Do I bask in the reflected glory of the ministry of others, rather than take up my own cross and follow him? Will I cross the oceans to hear a preacher when I won't cross the street to greet my friend? The heart of the great commission, Go, Make disciples, baptise them & teach them. God doesn't "do" revival on his own - otherwise he wouldn't have given us a blueprint or a mandate to reach the nations for Christ. But that mandate starts in our Jerusalem, then our Judea and Samaria, then the ends of the earth. Am I praying for revival in Samaria while not obeying my commission in Jerusalem? Is revival now a spectator sport, not a life consuming mission?

7. We're looking in the wrong places. It seems to me that our eyes are fixed on America, hoping revival will come from there. It has the right language, the media channels and millions of Christians ready to give a leader national prominence and millions of dollars. When God decided it was time for Jesus to come he didn't send him to Rome but to Bethlehem. If we could be bothered we should be talking to the Chinese, the Indian, the African.

So true. We play it safe. They look safe so they must be safe. When I look around in heaven I am not going to see a room full of educated polite white people - so why does my bookshelf contain the majority of books by polite educated white Christians? Why are the blogs I read mostly polite white educated Christians? We all know about the Chinese Church but what are we learning from them?

There is a sinister side too: The level of "voice" someone has can be shaped by money and viewing patterns, not necessarily fruit or integrity. I am setting myself up for a fall if my ministry, or my theology, or my relationships are too heavily reliant on one person or a few people.

8. Why can't we have good doctrine and great power? Personally I'm tired of this split where those with good doctrine see so little dunamis while those with all the dynamite just blow themselves up with it because they forget that theology actually is important after all.

Too true. I want to see both. I really do. We need people working in teams better. Let the teacher teach, the prophet prophecy and the healer heal. It does not have to be the one person, it is one body. I need to play my role in that body with what God has given me, while honouring all parts of the same body. Too often the single person approach to ministry means you only get a single track gifting: let's be a people moving in power and honouring Scripture, and that means all of us involved as a body.

9. Wacky, is well, wacky. God has every right to use methods and people that do not conform to my expectations. His wisdom can appear foolish to me, but that doesn't mean that everything that is foolish is from God. That would be, well, foolish.

We must not throw out something because we have not seen it before. When Jesus walked on water the disciples didn't reject him because the "biblical" way would be to part the water with a staff! But I always consider why Paul spent so much time structuring "orderly" worship rather than allowing God to "just do His stuff".

10. Sadly, we love being fighting to be right. I think blogs can be helpful places to get reactions and think through issues, it also becomes an easy way to take cheap shots and demonstrate a stunning lack of grace, charity, forgiveness, wisdom or discernment.

Yes that is true. Type "Todd Bentley" into google, or even "Todd Bentley Marriage" and you see a civil war within the blogosphere which is a tragedy. I read blogs by people I disagree with to broaden my thinking and challenge my assumptions. To engage not to attack. I know I am not right on everything, I am just trying to work out which bits!

"Fresh Fire Ministries" update...

Todd Bentley's ministry, Fresh Fire Ministries, have updated their statement regarding the situation that started to unfold last week.

"We wish to acknowledge, however, that since our last statement from the Fresh Fire Board of Directors, we have discovered new information revealing that Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff. In light of this new information and in consultation with his leaders and advisors, Todd Bentley has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life."

The full transcript is here.

This whole situation has a lot further to run - and we need to pray. Looking at various blogs and forums you see a massive schism forming between camps of people who either endorsed or opposed the Lakeland situation. It really is desperate. The people who oppose this are all over it like a pack of hyenas, while those who seek to support Todd are struggling as in the midst of the confusion it just sounds hollow.

It makes me consider previous occasions when situations have unravelled and I remember the very deep sadness felt by everyone. Both Fresh Fire statements deliberately make clear that they are not talking about adultery having taken place. Let us pray that the situation does not descend that far. People who defended the situation just days ago on account of there being no-one else involved are already on shifting sand as more information becomes public.

I remember being devastated when Kevin Prosch, a wonderful worship leader, highlight of mid nineties Soul Survivor, and author of my favourite song "Love is all you need", was removed from public ministry by his Church after admitting to adultery. Songs like "His banner over me is love" and "He is the Lord, and He reigns on High (Show your power)" are still common in churches across the world, not to mention "Lord of the dance". That was such a shock at the time - the first time a leader significant in my life had fallen in their moral walk. In situations like that it just feels like no one wins.

The other case that I vividly remember was even more complicated. I had been to a "Biblical Evangelism" conference arranged by UCCF and the speaker was a guy called Roy Clements from Cambridge, a stalwart of conservative evangelicalism, member of the EA Council and held in very, very high regard by the students I encountered. I met several people that weekend who were scathing about charismatics, including me, to my face, even at the dinner table, that the weekend is best left forgotten. But it was interesting the pedestal this preacher was on in their eyes. A few months later and there were marital difficulties and he was removed from his position in his church and went on to become a major voice within the homosexual evangelical movement and strong critic of the way he had been treated. The same people who put him on a pedestal were left absolutely devastated.

Both those experiences helped me to see how crushing it is when people fail, and also how dangerous it is to lift people so high. I think the media bandwagon that followed Todd Bentley made everything so big, so quickly, on an almost unprecedented scale. It now needs to have a good long hard look at itself. The "success" was beamed into living rooms of millions of people across the nations, and so the effects of problems arising are so much bigger too, and so far outside of the usual local church fellowship and support.

It is all so very sad, and we need some of the big hitters, the big players, the leaders whose words people listen to, to come out and make statements and give guidance, fathering & mothering hurting believers through a difficult time. And we need the christian media to beam those messages and those encouragements and those warnings into those millions of living rooms in nations across the world to help sure up the damage they partly liable for.

Pray for Todd & his wife - there is always a way back. The alternative is too sad to even consider.

Todd Bentley sadness

Todd Bentley and his wife have seperated.

And so the blogosphere goes into overdrive like vultures around a carcass.

Some of the posts in a thread like this fill me with hope, but most of them, especially early on, fill me with anger. Do not read them if you are easily offended, please. That first page is really quite painful to read.

The "I told you so" movement sweeps into full view, this is an example of many, although ones like this list some useful observations even if I don't agree with everything they say.

• We’re not to focus on outward appearances
• We’re to exercise discernment, regardless of the manifestations and preaching taking place from the pulpit
• There will always be examples like this
• Pray for Todd Bentley

Todd Bentley is the Christian "Gazza" of my generation. The same people who lifted him up are now dropping him like a stone. Those who always said it would end in tears are proved true, but end up looking callous and smug. It is a tragedy.

This is the saddest video of all I have seen from Lakeland. It was not that long ago at all.

Big questions for those apostles, Peter, John, Bill, Che, Rick etc on the stage that night.

1) Did they know the Bentleys were having relationship troubles?
2) What have done to support it?
3) What are they going to do for them now?

These were the promises over him: what are they going to do for him now?



Many people think that this "commissioning" was just people wanting to get on the stage of the next big thing. That is a harsh accusation, so prove them wrong guys - go to his aid, he needs you. You "stood with him" on the stage in front of hundreds of millions of viewers in tens of countries, now "stand with him" in the gutter.

I have a really heavy heart when I think about this, and my frustration is at both sides of the discussion.

To those who attack Todd - Why is the christian army the only army in the world who shoots our own wounded?

To those who support Todd - Why do we lift people up so high that all that is left to do is to fall?

We have the right to ask questions, really tough, pertinent, timely questions - "Apostles" at that service, ICA, God TV - what are you going to do to help Todd and what are you going to do to help those following him?

We have the right to ask questions about the money, the angels, the use of scripture, the style etc but one by one, by their own merits.

But critics of Todd - what would you like your christian brothers and sisters to do if you fall in some way? This is not the time to kick a man when he is down, it is time to lift truth and light and grace above human failure.

The fallout from this could be really huge, the damage to people's faith huge, the division caused massive. No-one wins.

As I ponder this situation my own response is this:

1) Pray for Todd
2) Pray for the reconciliation of their marriage
3) Pray for the children

And to seek to learn from it. Not getting off on a self righteous "I told you so" and not giving up on the power of God at work in witnessing to the glory of His son Jesus through signs and wonders.

I think we can only really deal with something like this if we:

Look to Jesus,
look to scripture,
look to wise counsel,
and look at our own hearts first.

NB: I have amended the post to be clearer in what I am trying to say based on comments received. I also removed a link to an unverified source, including a whole previous post, in response to Peter Kirk's fair challenge in the comments section regarding only focussing on verified statements, which I take on board now, and for the future.

ADDITION: This link was posted in the comment to an article by the editor of Charisma magazine

Should Todd Bentley speak at Newfrontiers Brighton 09?

There was an excellent post, followed by some good comments on wordandspirit asking who should be invited to speak at the Brighton Conference in 09.

A suggestion was made regarding Todd Bentley being invited. These are a few reasons why I would be nervous of doing that.

1) If we look at most of the great speakers of recent years, Mahaney, Kriansak, Driscoll, Rufus, each was different, each was annointed in a different way, but all were totally focussed on putting whatever their gifting was into play by planting local churches engaged in local mission. I would want to keep that rule of thumb as I feel that serves us best. People who only think it, but people who do it, and have a track record of doing what they think in local churches.

2) Each of those invited gave us "access" to a relatively new person to most of us, a new ministry, a new way of looking at things. God TV has so saturated the mainstream christian media and the blogosphere with the Lakeland stuff that most people want a break more than anything. All that we need to know or see is available at the touch of a button every day.

3) I think the messenger would get more focus than the message. Bentley fans may come for the man rather than the vision. In the same way I think we would take a lot of flak from other evangelicals if we invited Todd Bentley. We should never bottle a decision like that just to appease some criticism, but you have got to know 100% for it to be worthwhile. Put "Todd Bentley" into google and you see a christian culture at war with itself. I don't want us to take sides because it is not our fight.

4) I think many people in many churches are struggling to find a correct response to the whole Lakeland thing anyway. It has a platform way beyond what any other minstry / minister has had in years, considering the recent nature of the whole thing and the difficulty finding verification of healings etc. I don't want to just write off any ministry or minister, but I am concerned. I feel it has been raised up in profile way, way beyond what God is doing in other parts of the world, in other church movements, through other annointed people. If people are already feeling a sense of unease, then raising the profile is not going to help find the right response.

5) There are some great things happening and God is touching lives - but that doesn't mean all the messages coming out of Lakeland sit right with me. I believe God works in healing power out of a deep sense of compassion, and to draw people to himself and to glorify his son Jesus, that people may be saved and join the missional church in reaching others, bringing further glory to Jesus. Let's not lose that focus amongst the "third heaven", angelic visitations and teaching which sounds depressingly like the prosperity gospel.

So all in all it would be "thanks but no thanks" from me. I do want to bless what is good. I don't want to criticise fellow brothers in Christ. Nor do I want to get distracted from preaching the gospel, building community, ministering to the poor, seeing God work in signs and wonders and planting new churches which express these things and engage in relevant local mission. I think other people can help us do that in a more relevant and balanced way, so they would be my priority.