Does the fruit prove anything? Part Two

In my last post I discussed what I feel about talking up numbers too much.

My comments are aimed at the christian media, publishing, everywhere, and sometimes newfrontiers.

I am slightly uneasy when platform speakers or people whose books tend to get published and reviewed are "Mr X, from a big city, with a Church of 20,000 that has grown by 62% in just 18 months".

Do numbers on a Sunday equate with "God's blessing"? Does it make the pastor right?

What does it validate?

I think the issue is one of context. In America there are lots of large Churches. 1,300 over 2,000 in number, according to that fountain of all knowledge wikipedia! People in the UK swoon when they hear a Church is near the thousand mark.

How many mega Churches in the UK? It certainly would not be in proportion to America. Kensington Temple, HTB, Abundant Life, Kingsway, Renewal Centre Solihull? Any more?

There are loads more in America. More people go to Church, more people go to big Churches, there are more big Churches. Does that validate their pastor's ministry? What about the massive big trendy liberal Churches in metropolitan areas of the USA? What does their size validate?

Which preacher had the biggest exposure in the last two years? Step forward Mr Bentley. What did that validate?

Lots of the larger churches and ministries seem to thrive on elements of and exposure to properity teaching, which I detest.

If it DOES validate their ministry then why within newfrontiers do we not hear more of and more from the other megachurches in the UK? What about Abundant Life or Kingsway International Centre? Do we only pick someone who is fairly close to some of our theological positions, like a Keller or a Driscoll, who have also happen to have a big Church? For the record, I think Driscoll and keller have been excellent at stirring and challenging newfrontiers.

If we have invited them because we consider them to be "close" theologically (which I think is a mostly good thing) , then is the size of their Church relevant? In what way? Is the size of their Church indexed against the size of the city within which they draw thier congregation? Do we count new Christians or bums on seats? Does the percentage of the population who are Christian make a difference?

If it DOES NOT validate their ministry then why is it mentioned?

There are some wonderful pastors who lead massive churches. There are some wonderful pastors who lead small churches. Why does one get to write the books and speak at the conferences but not the other?

This is not just a newfrontiers thing, this is seen throughout christendom.

God is blessing x, y and z because their Church is "growing" or "large" or "successful"? Really?

My name is Dave, and I am an elder at a Church
My name is Dave, and I am an elder at a Church of 300
My name is Dave, and I am an elder at a Church of 300 in the town of 80,000
My name is Dave, and I am an elder at a Church that has planted two Churches in the last six years
My name is Dave, and I am an elder at one of the largest Churches in our town
My name is Dave, and I am an elder at one of the largest churches in our county

My name is Dave, and I am an elder at a Church of 300 in the town of 80,000 that has planted two Churches in the last six years and is one of the largest Churches in our town and indeed our county.

Is 300 big to you? Does it really matter? Does it make you think differently? Does it make us any more "right"? or our theology, ecclesiology or missiology any more robust?

Does 300 look small to you? Do you look down your nose at such a meagre sized Church? What could I know about anything? God is not blessing this so my thinking must have gone AWOL. Aw, look at him, poor little chap. Just a "team" elder in a small Church in the countryside. Must be tough out there on the fringe.

Both are equally imbalanced.

I am just Dave, and I want to follow Jesus, with my heart on my sleeve, and I will make mistakes, so we will just have to see what happens.

Now let's fish out some Paul Scanlon CDs, he leads a BIG church!